>> COOPER: And every once in a while, you tweak it. You know, you have something else in mind, and you give it a try. >> RIEDEL: Usually when Sam Gold is not there? [ Laughter ] >> HASKINS: "Theater Talk" is made possible in part by... >> NORA: Also, here's another thing that bothers me.
You don't get angry. >> TORVALD: Of course I do. >> NORA: Maybe once you -- >> TORVALD: Right now I feel angry. >> NORA: Right now you're angry? >> TORVALD: You're damn right I.
Am. >> NORA: No, I don't believe that you are angry, that you're in it, that you're inside the feeling of feeling angry. I think you're just outside of it, looking at it like, "Oh, there's some interesting thing." >> HASKINS: From New York City, this is "Theater Talk." I'm Susan Haskins. >> RIEDEL: And I'm Michael Riedel of the New York Post.
Now, Susan, there's a terrific new play on Broadway, "A Doll's House, Part 2," that shows us what has happened to Nora in the 15 years since she [Dramatically] slammed the door on Torvald and went out into the world. [ Normal voice ] The play is by Lucas Hnath. Welcome to "Theater Talk." >> HNATH: Thanks. >> RIEDEL: And it stars the brilliant Laurie Metcalf...
>> METCALF: Thank you. >> RIEDEL: ...As Nora, and the equally brilliant Chris Cooper as Torvald. >> COOPER: Thank you. >> RIEDEL: Welcome, all, to "Theater Talk." And congratulations on Tony nominations.
I think you're the triple threat here, I do believe. [ Laughter ] >> HASKINS: Yes, your entire cast of four was nominated and you, and how splendid. >> HNATH: And Sam Gold and... >> RIEDEL: [ Speaks indistinctly ] All right, so, Lucas, what got you thinking about the continuation of Nora's life? 'Cause I remember, years ago, there was a "Hal" Prince musical...
>> HNATH: "A Doll's Life." >> RIEDEL: ...Called "A Doll's Life" with George Hearn, and it sort of follows her into the world. >> HNATH: There's a couple of rather obscure sequels to the play, but, you know, I'm a big Ibsen fan. I love -- I think he's a master of plot. I love how the plays sort of work like this amazing roller-coaster ride.
So I started off as an Ibsen fan, and then I just, sort of as a joke, told somebody I was gonna write "A Doll's House, Part 2." Something about the title, like, made me giggle and felt a little naughty. And then the joke turned into a real thing when I just started playing around with the original Ibsen play and tried to figure out where the space is to say more or to continue the conversation. >> RIEDEL: Well, what I thought was fascinating, because "A Doll's House" is a drama, but this play -- certainly has dramatic elements, but it's very funny. And I admired the way you get away with allowing these 19th-century characters to speak in contemporary fashion.
>> HNATH: Yeah, well, you know, it's interesting. In studying Ibsen and studying how his plays are received in Norway, something that I often read is that, in Norway, people are laughing riotously at his plays and -- >> RIEDEL: He's the Neil Simon of -- [ Laughter ] >> HNATH: Sort of. I mean, there's something about when you have incredibly high stakes and people are being compelled to be honest, that that creates a kind of comedy. I did think that contemporizing the language would make those moments of telling the truth a bit more immediate and therefore funny.
>> RIEDEL: So, Laurie, where is Nora at this point in her life when "Part 2" begins? >> METCALF: When you hear the knock on the door, 15 years have passed, and we don't know what she's been up to, but she shows up looking pretty well, pretty good. >> RIEDEL: She does. >> METCALF: You said that you had asked people what they thought would've happened to Nora and most were negative. >> HNATH: Yeah, I polled a lot of people.
>> METCALF: Speculations, yeah. >> HNATH: Yeah. >> RIEDEL: That she would've failed. >> HNATH: Yeah, yeah.
And I thought that was peculiar, and it made me want to do the exact opposite. >> RIEDEL: So she is a successful -- Can we give some of it away or... >> METCALF: I don't like to give away what has made Nora successful, because, in the writing, Lucas sets it up as a guessing game between Nora and Anne Marie, which is mirroring, I think, what the audience is going through, also. >> HASKINS: I was anticipating the worst.
>> METCALF: Yes. Even though how she looks? >> HASKINS: No. Well, this is true, but I. Thought maybe you had made good money there as it were, but I.
Want to say that Linda Winer, the critic, said you were wearing the most beautiful dress she'd ever seen. >> METCALF: David Zinn, also a Tony nominee. >> HASKINS: In the guessing game, I thought, "Oh, no, has she fallen?" >> METCALF: Well, that's what Anne Marie -- Well, yeah, Anne Marie doesn't know what could possibly have earned Nora this success. So Anne Marie is very, very surprised when Nora tells her, very proudly, what she's been up to.
>> RIEDEL: And then, of course, there's a wonderful moment where we do not expect Torvald's arrival, because you haven't seen each other since she slammed the door. [ Chuckles ] And I must say -- >> COOPER: Yeah, the timing was perfect. Torvald has just -- On this one particular day, he's forgotten some paperwork. [ Laughter ] And then early arrival home.
>> RIEDEL: Yes, but there's a marvelous bit where he doesn't recognize her at first. >> COOPER: Yeah. >> RIEDEL: I love that. What's gone on in his life for these last 15 years? Is he the same man he was when she left, or has he moved along? >> COOPER: You know -- [ Chuckles ] We're working on this for -- We've been working on this since the second week of October 2016.
>> HASKINS: Wow. >> COOPER: And five months may seem like a pretty long time. I just feel like we're just getting our feet wet. >> RIEDEL: Really? >> COOPER: Yes.
>> RIEDEL: Why do you think that is? Is it because you are now in front of an audience and you have a sense of how they are responding to the play and how they're reacting to the character? >> COOPER: I think the pace is so important, and it was so driven by Sam Gold. Just recently have I been given the time, settling in here, to really... Think and begin -- and begin to personalize this character. >> RIEDEL: Mm.
>> COOPER: Just begun to do that. >> HASKINS: Does that make the experience more fun for the two of you, that you're still working it out as... >> METCALF: Yeah, it's really... Our two scenes that we have together onstage are both very different.
And I love the point that we get to in the last scene, which is, I think, unexpected from the audience. I get reminded every time before a show that it's a first-time, only-time hearing for that crowd. And you have a mental reminder of how to lay the story out. >> COOPER: And every once in a while, you tweak it.
You know, you have something else in mind, and you give it a try, you know? And -- >> RIEDEL: Usually when Sam Gold is not there? [ Laughter ] >> COOPER: No, I think Sam was... Sam was extremely encouraging and gave us so much free rein. He gave us the freedom to really find our blocking, find our movement, find -- And he certainly had an eye of... You know, the stage is unusual in that it comes way out beyond the proscenium.
>> RIEDEL: The point of a triangle. >> COOPER: The point of a triangle. >> HASKINS: Lucas, how do you describe the setting in -- Before Sam got to it and came in with the designer, how did you describe the setting of this play? >> HNATH: Yeah, I'm trying to remember what's in the script. There's a little note at the front of the script that says a couple of things.
It says that you should have as little as possible onstage. >> METCALF: Mm-hmm. The door is prominent. >> HNATH: The door is prominent.
The setting is a little abstracted because there's a degree to which I'm not interested in the audience reading the play so literally. The moment that you start to create a house that has some, you know, effort toward verisimilitude -- >> HASKINS: With tchotchkes. >> HNATH: Yeah, you start having other -- >> RIEDEL: The hypernaturalism of Ibsen. >> HNATH: Yeah.
And, you know, my first stab at writing the play, right, very, very beginning, was sort of a mock Ibsen play. But there's something about it that felt a little bit like a tribute band. [ Laughter ] You know, it was a little too cute, little too clever, and -- "Okay, let's strip away as much as I can." >> RIEDEL: What I found interesting about it, Laurie, is you look at the original play, and you're on Nora's side because she has to get out of this suffocating world. But you jump 15 years ahead when this play starts, her decision had consequences for the other people...
>> METCALF: Mm. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. >> RIEDEL: ...That were not necessarily the best things that could happen to people. >> METCALF: Right.
Well, that's what Lucas did, you know? Nora comes back just full of life and experience and... >> RIEDEL: Been great for her. >> METCALF: ...Confidence and, yeah, one little tweak that she's got to make to get right back into the thick of things in how she's running her life the way she wants it. And, yeah, and so these things hit her in the face when she comes back and realize what the time has cost everybody.
>> HASKINS: It struck me that she had taken on the male narcissism that we had seen in Torvald in "A Doll's House 1," and it was in an interesting... Not to tell you what you're doing, but it was an interesting psychological dynamic suddenly flipping. >> METCALF: And it's interesting between her and her grown daughter now, with how they're looking now -- They don't know each other, but they seem ver-- They're on opposite ends of the spectrum with marriage. >> HASKINS: Yes, I mean, what did she do this girl? >> METCALF: Yes, the abandonment issue.
You don't expect that coming in this sequel at all, that mother-daughter relationship. >> HASKINS: In our traditional perception of male-female relationships, you would've thought that he would bounce back better. I would've thought -- From reading the first "Doll's House," I would've thought he would bounce back better than you describe. >> HNATH: Yeah, I mean, I don't know.
It's... >> COOPER: No, I don't... >> HASKINS: No? All right. [ Chuckles ] >> METCALF: Well, he had to stay there within that community.
>> COOPER: Within that community and, you know... I don't think we're giving anything away. Yes, yes, keep Anne Marie for raising the kids. The boys are gone, but, you know, the youngest daughter is still in the household.
And I think he's kind of brought his daughter up to be a very proper... >> RIEDEL: [ Chuckles ] >> COOPER: It's almost contradictory what I hear coming from Emmy, that she's, "Mm..." Can I... ...Not so interested in books and all that, but a whip-smart girl. >> HASKINS: But he didn't find another wife.
That's my point. >> COOPER: Um, well... We were provided with a bunch of scholarly articles about Norway at that period and women's rights and what was going on with marriage and men's and women's relationships. I think he was so concerned, so -- And this seemed to be a part of that period.
What society thought of people at that time was paramount. >> HASKINS: Mm. Mm. >> COOPER: And I remember I was also kind of interested in what was happening religiously in Norway.
And I said -- What is it, Lutheran? >> HNATH: Yeah. >> COOPER: Predominantly Lutheran? And I was struck that, at that period of time in the church, in the Lutheran religion, they believed the children could only inherit the evil from mothers, from the mothers. And that was kind of really interesting to me. But, no, I imagine, in a quiet little town in Norway...
>> RIEDEL: Not a lot of singles bars back then. >> COOPER: ...He's settled in, and he's not an outgoing man. He's a man of numbers and money, and I just think he found his quiet little niche, you know? >> RIEDEL: Is it possible, Lucas, that he -- 'Cause I. Always saw this in the original play, "Doll's House, Part 1," he does love Nora.
>> HNATH: Yes, and -- >> RIEDEL: And I think he still loves Nora in his way. He doesn't understand her, but he does love her. >> HNATH: Well, when I started writing this play, I went and found a really bad translation online, cut and pasted it into a document, and tried to write Ibsen's play in my own words. And I stripped out any of the stuff that we sort of associate very easily with "A Doll's House." So I stripped out the references to macaroons.
I stripped out the "my little bird," "squirrel," all that stuff. >> METCALF: [ Chuckles ] >> RIEDEL: Thank God. >> HNATH: And when you take out a lot of these little -- I mean, and they're absolutely integral bits, but when you take out these things that we sort of very quickly associate with the play, something that became very clear to me is, the marriage between Nora and Helmer, they're two people who are stepping around each other. They don't want to get into a fight.
They want everything to just be nice and, you know, comfortable. And it's all of that avoiding of the difficult stuff, the anger, that seemed, to me, to be the real problem in this marriage. And so that created a mandate for the sequel. They need to have it out.
>> RIEDEL: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, you do. Well, it's a fascinating play.
>> COOPER: And like everybody -- And I think we kind of brought up -- Lucas has so developed points of view. I mean, that's paramount in this script. Each person has a valid point of view over these, you know... Since Nora has left.
And...You know, I mean, the folks that are coming backstage after the thing are saying, "Well, I didn't like Torvald in the opening, but I've, you know, learned to see his side of it." The Millennials certainly see Emmy's side of it. And, you know, there's... [ Sighs ] I'm sure there's a group that totally -- I mean, probably a big group that totally see's Anne Marie's -- >> HASKINS: Yes, the middle-aged servant girl. [ Laughing ] We do.
>> RIEDEL: [ Laughs ] But Nora's side is still, "I'm having a good time in my life." >> METCALF: Well -- >> COOPER: But she's got her argument. She's still her strong, strong arguments, too. Yeah. >> METCALF: Yeah, and she's -- There's a commitment to her, and her fight's not done.
>> RIEDEL: Absolutely. >> METCALF: Yeah, she's gonna keep going. She's courageous and selfish and funny. It's the Nora that we get to see that we never could have met her had she not gone off and had the experiences that she's had.
And now she gets to come back and show the person that she's grown into. >> RIEDEL: Got to wrap it up. All right. The play is "A Doll's House, Part 2," at the Golden Theatre -- a terrific production starring Laurie Metcalf and Chris Cooper, written by Lucas Hnath.
Thank you all for being our guests tonight on "Theater Talk," and good luck on June 11th. >> ANNE MARIE: After all the problems I've already fixed for you, you want me to fix this, too?! Is that what you're really saying?! [Bleep] you, Nora! [Bleep] you! You have zero gratitude. >> ANYA: ...Across my memory Far away, long ago Glowing dim as an ember Things my heart used to know Things it yearns to remember >> RIEDEL: Now, Susan, there was a hugely popular animated movie in the '90s, "Anastasia," which you saw when you were a little girl, right? >> HASKINS: Yes. [ Both laugh ] Right after "Pinocchio." Right.
>> RIEDEL: [ Laughs ] Right. It has been made into a terrific new Broadway musical here in New York at the Broadhurst Theatre. It stars Christy Alt-- Altomare. I got it right.
>> ALTOMARE: [ Italian accent ] Altomare. >> RIEDEL: Altomare, right, as the title character, Anastasia. And Ramin Karimloo, who plays the evil -- sort of evil Gleb -- in pursuit of her. >> KARIMLOO: Absolutely.
>> RIEDEL: And it was written by Terrence McNally, who seems to be on this show every time I. Turn [Laughing] around. Welcome back for your -- >> McNALLY: I play the good guy. I'm the hero, romantic lead.
>> RIEDEL: That's right. Welcome back for your 10th appearance, Terrence. Now, Terrence, years ago, when you were on this show, you told me you had a sign on your desk that says, "No more musicals." [ Laughing ] And here you are with your, what, 10th musical? How many is this for you? >> McNALLY: I don't know how many, but I -- I don't think it's 10, but it's getting up there. >> RIEDEL: Is that sign still on the desk or have you just thro-- >> McNALLY: No, I took it down.
>> RIEDEL: [ Laughs ] >> McNALLY: But when Lynn Ahrens and Stephen Flaherty ask if you're interested in working with them again... >> RIEDEL: 'Cause you did "Ragtime" with them. >> McNALLY: Yeah. And I said, "Well, let me wa--" I had not seen the film.
We did "Ragtime" and "Man of No Importance" -- two shows I'm very, very proud of. >> RIEDEL: Yeah. >> McNALLY: And I watched the movie, and I saw -- I loved the score. And I did remember dimly the Ingrid Bergman movie.
>> RIEDEL: Yes, of course. Yeah. >> McNALLY: And I said, "I think this could make a terrific musical, but it's got to be about real people, and we can't have singing animals, and it's got to be set in an historical context." >> RIEDEL: Right. >> McNALLY: People like Lenin and Bolsheviks really existed, and a family called the Romanovs were executed.
And there was a rumor that one of them escaped and she wanted to be reunited with her grandmother. And all this was very appealing to me 'cause it's a modern fairy tale with real seeds in reality, the history of Europe. So I said, "I'd be very interested," and we had a meeting, and we started working. Just about four years ago, they called me.
>> RIEDEL: Having delved into the Romanovs and the history, we know through DNA that Anastasia really -- she did die. But why do you think people have clung to this idea that she escaped for so long? What is appealing about it? >> McNALLY: I think we love good fairy tales, good mysteries. We love stories about people searching for their identity. >> RIEDEL: Mm-hmm.
>> McNALLY: We all have a longing -- "What were my -- Who are my ancestors? Where are my precedents as a person?" And there's something very human about wanting to find out who I. Am. I think we've created a modern fairy tale. >> HASKINS: But, also, what is a historical reality is that this was really an opportunity for some young woman, if, in fact, she was -- turned out to be Anastasia.
And, Christy, your character has amnesia, right? >> ALTOMARE: Yes, she has amnesia, and at that period in time, you know, in Russia, there was a lot of people destitute, fighting to get bread on the streets. And so it is an alluring thing to -- "Oh, maybe Grandma will have the answers, you know, and be able to --" >> HASKINS: "Maybe I'm not this poor person." >> RIEDEL: Maybe I'm not poor. [ Laughs ] >> ALTOMARE: Maybe -- Yeah. Yeah.
>> McNALLY: And the number of bodies in the grave of the Romanovs -- Anastasia's body was not there. >> HASKINS: Yes, and this was -- Because now -- >> McNALLY: We've learned many years later she was buried 200 yards away in another pit. >> HASKINS: In came DNA, and they figured it -- >> McNALLY: So there was a real basis for these rumors to have started. >> BOTH: Yeah.
>> RIEDEL: Now, Ramin, you're [Laughing] the bad guy. >> KARIMLOO: So they say. >> RIEDEL: [ Laughing ] Right. You have that dark, bad-guy look about you, I must say -- very fetching.
>> HASKINS: Well, you're the Communist. You represent the Communist... >> KARIMLOO: Yeah, Deputy Commissioner Gleb Vagonov, you know -- Bolshevik. >> RIEDEL: And he must destroy her because the Romanovs must be wiped out.
There can be no rallying point, right? >> KARIMLOO: The dilemma is, if you are Anas-- if Anya is Anastasia, what do I do about that, you know, knowing what we did -- well, what my father and his folks did. >> HASKINS: What did your father do? >> KARIMLOO: He was one of the guards that was there. He pulled the trigger. >> McNALLY: The execution squad.
>> KARIMLOO: He died of shame. You know, you kill women and children that, you know... >> McNALLY: Point blank. >> KARIMLOO: Even for them, [Chuckles] this was not the way to go about it.
>> RIEDEL: There's a lot more of this in the musical than there is in the Dis-- okay, the Disney, it was not a Disney movie -- in the cartoon movie. >> McNALLY: Yeah. >> HASKINS: You're showing us both sides of the issue in this musical. >> McNALLY: We tried to make it a musical for Broadway...
>> HASKINS: It is indeed. >> McNALLY: ...Not an adaptation of either film. And I said to Lynn and Stephen -- For example, the movie opens with the most famous song from the film, "Journey to the Past." Now it's our Act 1 curtain. >> HASKINS: Mm-hmm.
>> McNALLY: And I said, "I think Act 1 should take place entirely in the repressive society of Leningrad in 1927. And Act 2 takes place in the liberated Paris of Picasso, Stravinsky... >> HASKINS: Yes. >> McNALLY: ...Modern art, jazz, women wearing short skirts.
>> HASKINS: But I do want to say, at the beginning of Act 1, you do have the fabulous Romanov ball with the beautiful beaded costumes and -- [ Laughs ] >> McNALLY: There was something very seductive about that way of life. We could all daydream about living that way. >> RIEDEL: But I do like the fact, though, Terrence, that you... I just could never see you doing an animated movie.
>> McNALLY: I couldn't either. That's why I said, "If you want a singing bat..." There's a famous bat in the movie, and I. Think a chipmunk or two might have a number. >> RIEDEL: [ Laughs ] >> McNALLY: ...I said, "I'm not your guy.
It's a great movie, but I don't do chipmunks, so I'll pass." [ Laughter ] And they got it, and I said, "Your villain in the movie is Rasputin. He died six or seven years before the Romanovs were executed." So my sense of history cannot be that -- I want people to learn something from the show. >> RIEDEL: Absolutely. >> McNALLY: Like, "Oh, yeah, there was --" That was the last dynasty to go down and the violence of that revolution and -- Russia was hermetically sealed from the rest of the world.
>> RIEDEL: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. >> McNALLY: And I just found all this fascinating to write about. >> RIEDEL: You've been to Russia a couple of times. Did you ever go the site where the Romanovs were killed? >> McNALLY: No, no.
That's quite a trip from where I. Was. >> RIEDEL: When you were in the Soviet Union, were you aware of the enduring cult of the Romanovs? >> McNALLY: I was. >> RIEDEL: Still there even though -- >> McNALLY: I was shocked to see souvenirs of the Romanovs being sold, yeah.
And 'cause this is one -- I. Said, "I can't believe there's really this long a line every day --" and it was bitter cold -- to see Lenin embalmed in that tomb. >> RIEDEL: Yeah. >> McNALLY: Stood in line for three hours and -- "Keep moving, keep moving." So you're in the room, the mausoleum, looking at his body for no more than 60 seconds.
And I waited three hours just to have that experience, and this was almost, you know, 60 years after the Revolution, 70 years. And people -- the cult of Lenin. And that's why he had to be in the show, you know, his stature, presence. These are real people, and, you know, this happened.
>> HASKINS: Could you have imagined such a set? I want to go back to the your set. >> McNALLY: The technology... >> HASKINS: It's an incredible, incredible set, but then that they could realize anything you wrote. You didn't have to be confined by anything.
>> McNALLY: Someone told me really good advice a few year-- I wish they'd told me much earlier. They said, "Just write it." >> HASKINS: Yeah. >> McNALLY: We'll find a way to stage it. >> HASKINS: Yes, I mean, they have a moving train going across Europe, and you're on it.
>> RIEDEL: Christy and Ramin, I. Want to ask you guys, though -- we've had a lot of set glitches lately, and, you know, we had the whole issue with "Spider-Man." You guys are the actors out there every night. These sets are getting bigger and bigger and more complicated. Is there ever a moment where you think, "Good, God, I could be in jeopardy because the technology is so huge on Broadway now"? >> ALTOMARE: It's a case-by-case basis, and this team has always made us feel safe from the very beginning.
I think, first time we got on the train, we ran it so carefully to make sure nobody got hurt, and everything was super-safe. >> McNALLY: Our director, Darko Tresnjak, was so good about that. I was very impressed how he put actor safety above everything. >> RIEDEL: Well, Ramin, you've been in some of the -- You've been in "Phantom" and "Les Miz" -- turntables, chandeliers.
>> KARIMLOO: Yeah. >> RIEDEL: [ Chuckling ] Is it getting out of control to some extent? >> KARIMLOO: No, but I've been stuck in an angel a couple times. >> RIEDEL: Oh, in "The Phantom"? >> KARIMLOO: Yeah, I was stuck there, and it started swinging, and they're like, "Ladies and gentlemen, we're gonna take a break." I'm like, "You're gonna take a break? I'm stuck on -- [ Laughter ] I got nowhere to go. They're like, "Don't move!" I'm like, "What do you mean don't move?" [ Laughter ] "I'm not going anywhere." >> RIEDEL: Well, don't miss "Anastasia" at the Broadhurst Theatre -- beautiful new musical written by Terrence McNally with Lynn Ahrens and Stephen Flaherty.
I'm sorry they couldn't be here to join us but -- >> McNALLY: A lot of new songs. >> RIEDEL: Yes, how many new songs? >> McNALLY: Only about 4 from the movie and 9 or 10 brand-new ones -- that are gorgeous. >> HASKINS: The movie songs, people applaud for the movie songs they're so happy to hear them, and then there's wonderful new songs. >> McNALLY: And they love the new songs just as much, so that's great.
>> RIEDEL: Starring Christy Altomare and Ramin Karimloo. We'll see you at "Anastasia" with our tiaras on. The kids, the girls, show up with tiaras. Lynn and Steve told me.
They all come with tiaras, don't they? >> ALTOMARE: Yes. It's adorable. >> RIEDEL: Terrence McNally, you are now a teen idol. Did you ever think? [ Laughter ] >> McNALLY: Sometimes I say, "Did I write this show?" There's no four-letter words, not even partial nudity, and I.
Wrote it! [ Laughter ] The start of something. >> RIEDEL: Okay, "Anastasia" at the Broadhurst. Thanks a lot for being our guests tonight on "Theater Talk." >> ANYA Dancing bears, painted wings Things I almost remember And a song someone sings Once upon a December [ Chorus vocalizing ] >> HASKINS: Our thanks to the Friends of "Theater Talk" for their significant contribution to this production. >> ANNOUNCER: We welcome your questions or comments for "Theater Talk." Thank you..
